A demonstration of how fast car designers can gain knowledge

"themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles" (themanwithsauce) 02/24/2019 at 22:07 • Filed to: None

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1985 Pontiac Fiero vs 2017 Focus ST. One is a mid engined, wedge shaped 2-seater. The other is a bulbous family hatchback with added bits and bobs to look “sporty”. One has a drag coefficient of 0.30, the other 0.377. Which is which?

Focus: 0.30 - Each panel and add-on still sculpts and moves the air in coordination with the rest of the body. Modern wind tunnels are also more accurate and capable of modeling the airflow at speed better

Fiero: 0.377. Because “LOL IT LOOKS SMOOTH” was still kinda good enough back then

Anyways, this begins the content of my new ownership of a 1985 Fiero. Hold on to your collective asses, Oppo, cause I have plenty more in the pipeline.

Spanfeller is a twat > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:13

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The most aerodynamic car is the Mercedes Benz CLA.... with a 0.22 cd and a very smal frontal area . Pretty slippery

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:14

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So when is a LS4/G60 going in it? 

PS9 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:16

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Also you can kind of prototype what Cd your car is going to have without having to build anything, vs. 1977.

PS9 > Spanfeller is a twat 02/24/2019 at 22:16

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The only thing that car does well. 

someassemblyrequired > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:17

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Ha yeah true, though way less frontal area with the Fiero, so drag (force) is probably quite a bit lower...

Also it was designed by guys with 80s moustaches, so they know what’s not smooth...

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:17

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Can't wait to see more fiero content

Spanfeller is a twat > PS9 02/24/2019 at 22:17

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I dig the new one... but I’d get an A class over it

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:22

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I too plan on picking up a pop-up headlighted GM product soon, when my GTI bullshit clears.

PS9 > Spanfeller is a twat 02/24/2019 at 22:22

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I sat it one, a C class, and an accord.

The distance between the CLA and the Accord appalled me. And that was the last gen which had a much cheaper looking and feeling interior. I couldn’t believe it. The C class contrasted against both of them sharply. I understand there should be some kind of gap between the C and the Accord, but both those cars put the CLA to shame.

The CLA makes it glaringly obvious that Merc has no idea how to build cheap cars well. It genuinely feels like Merc has 90s era Kia build them and send them through a time machine to the present.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 02/24/2019 at 22:25

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Never. It keep s the iron duke. Or....I drop in an SD4 - a 300+ hp version of the iron duke for oval racing. I vote we rename it the Iron Emperor. 

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2019 at 22:25

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C5 vette?

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:26

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Yes. LS the world.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 02/24/2019 at 22:27

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My friends and I are organizing the road trip to bring it home. Way more people want to tag along than I ex pec ted but then again, in my circle I am the last to own a Fiero soooooo yeah, there’s heavy nostalgia for all of them in bringing a ratted up old Fiero back to life.

Spanfeller is a twat > PS9 02/24/2019 at 22:29

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The new one is pretty great, Mercedes sort of got their shit together with it. But it’s undeniable that the C class is more luxurious, albeit, at a cost.

If I had to chose betweent the A class, the A3, and the F20 based on interior quality , I’d probably get the A class.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > PS9 02/24/2019 at 22:29

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Yeah, computer simulation software fro m the 80s was a bit.....lacking.

Nick Has an Exocet > PS9 02/24/2019 at 22:32

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I need to sit in the CLA. I rented an A18 0 over in the UK for the last gen and it was fine. Better than I expected for a typical rental car. I expected to have a Renault or a Peugeot 308.

The biggest issue with it, in my opinion, is that we’re not used to this class of car from this type of manufacturer in the US. It’s essentially MB does a Scion.

That’s not to say it’s a good cabin and we should just accept it. You can do the same comparison at Jaguar. Sit in an F-Type, then an F-Pace, then an E-Pace. In the F-Pace you think “oh, I see where you saved some money but it’s fine because I won’t have to touch over there”. You get into the E-Pace and you think “OH GOD IT’S THE SAME SHAPES BUT THEY’VE BEEN CONSTRUCTED OUT OF LEGO AND THEY’VE PRINTED SOME OF IT TO LOOK LIKE LEATH ER.”

Seriously, the E-Pace interior is appalling .

Michael > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:33

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I remember this! What was it called?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > someassemblyrequired 02/24/2019 at 22:35

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Men of the 80s knew the moustache, while not aerodynamic, was useful in other....slipp ery situations. 

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Michael 02/24/2019 at 22:35

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Car Builder. From 1989!

ranwhenparked > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:39

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And there was this, from the same company, in the same era, with 0 .28. 

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2019 at 22:41

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Upon purchase of your vette, I will grant you a 6-month grace period on the following memes and jokes out of respect for your ordeal

-Mullets
-Lawn chairs at car shows
-Corvette merchandise
-”never been raced”/”BRUH I RACED A ____ AND HAD HIM BY 3 LENGTHS”
-Corvettes at Carlisle
-Golf
-Hair Loss
-Retirement in Florida

AFTER 6 months however.....Al l this is fair game and I will make sure to use them whenever tactically relevant. Just ask Milky - I still haven’t let him live down his purchase of a Crossfire and that was back in 2014...

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ranwhenparked 02/24/2019 at 22:41

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That looks like a suppository. And drives like one too - Shit going upstream.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:44

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I hate Golf, but I’ve hit “I’m too old for this shit” at 24, and I wouldn’t mind moving back down to Florida.

I also plan to fully embrace the Corvette lifestyle, by wearing jorts to C&C.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2019 at 22:47

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And notice how “jorts” and “Cars and Coffee” were not on that list...

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2019 at 22:48

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Also - socks and sandals. 

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:49

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Not a chance in hell.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2019 at 22:54

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It’s not something you get a say in - it just comes with seat time in a corvette. 

facw > someassemblyrequired 02/24/2019 at 22:57

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Yep, people tend to get really excited about coefficient of drag without paying attention to the fact the area is just as important.

Milky > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:57

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Haha, I appreciate you. Never change.

*I still like the Crossfire 

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 22:59

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Socks and sandal Vette owners drive a 4L60E.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 02/24/2019 at 22:59

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Same to you, man. Keep being awesome

*You still have shit taste in chryslers

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 02/24/2019 at 23:02

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I don’t see the manual corvette in your driveway yet....this is schrodinger’s corvette. You both do, and do not have, an automatic corvette until it can be proven otherwise.

Now, it’s getting kinda late, didn’t tonight’s rerun of CSI already end? I’m amazed you’re still awake at this hour ;) (Oh yes, we’re starting this now)

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 23:15

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A z32, introduced in 1989, has a cD of 0.31 with its sleek sports car profile. My comparatively blunt shaped sedan that debuted 6 years later has a cD of 0.27.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 23:19

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Northstar swap it.

Chariotoflove > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 23:19

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I am looking forward to much Fiero content. 

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Chariotoflove 02/24/2019 at 23:24

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I hope to give much Fiero content. I don’t think there are too many on Oppo and there’s that one dude with a blue toyota who thinks its so special who doesnt realize that we’re rivals now for mid-ship content on Oppo. It gets better since the new Fiero is the nice, bright red like you find in most Fiero pictures so it’s a red fiero against a blue MR2......Of course, the fiero is a slow as dogshit little econobox commuter car while he has a turbocharged actual sports car but WHATEVER HIS ASS IS GRASS LONG LIVE THE IRON DUKE!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 02/24/2019 at 23:26

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When the last northstar has bled its final drop of coolant out of a blown head gasket, the first iron duke will let out a slight cough.

The only GM engine it will get besides the duke will be a 3800 Series III. And that is highly unlikely. I’d rotary swap it before I put in a northstar.

Chariotoflove > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 23:26

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USA! USA!

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/24/2019 at 23:32

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One of these cars has a C/D of 0.35 , the other is 0.32.

Which is which?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 02/24/2019 at 23:41

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Viper is 0.35 - the hood bulge dips back down and forms an odd angle for the air in that area. Then you have its greater need for air to both feed the engine, and cool it, and cool the brakes, and it makes a bit of sense. Kinda. Sorta. I think? I also heard the old Vipers were NOT super stable at high speeds when stock. So yeah, that checks out. 

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 00:11

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Looking forward to more Fiero content.

However, I must point out...

Coefficient of drag is not drag. The Coefficient has to be multiplied by the frontal area as a reduction factor.

A brick, crate, or shipping container probably has a Coefficient of Drag somewhere in the vicinity of 1.0, multiplied by the area of the surface presented as the front. No reduction in drag, because it isn’t streamlined.

A Coefficient of Drag of 0 .33 multiplied by that same frontal area means that it reduces the effective frontal drag to the equivalent of something one third the size. Making something appear to be 2/3rds smaller than it is to the air rushing by, is done by streamlining.

But the frontal area of a Fiero may be smaller than the larger Focus , and more than offset 7 percent less streamlining reduction effect.

Then there is the measurement methodology. Putting the form in a wind tunnel and measuring a given flow rate’s resistive force applied to the form accounts for multiple forms of drag, including both laminar and turbulent drag, including the form’s initial presentation to the fluid it moves through, as well as the turbulent low pressure drag in the form’s wake, and the friction of the fluid along the form’s surfaces.

The Fiero may present a more streamlined presentation, but may have points of higher air pressure, as well as a large cavity behind the cabin which creates turbulent airflow behind the car’s form, intentionally creating a low-pressure void above the engine lid to draw higher pressure air up from underneath the car, and through the side intake, into that low pressure zone above the engine lid, behind the rear glass. The body seams and such are also less optimized, under-car airflow is probably far less managed, the nose is more likely to generate lift than down-force, as well as less attention paid to laminar friction along the top and sides, or managing a clean separation of laminar flow off the rear surfaces.

Focus has many more laminar flow managing surfaces to minimize laminar friction, but not totally disturb the surrounding airflow, more under-body airflow and lift-cancelling development, optimized body seams and a much shallower windshield rake with less of a transition at the cowl, as well as shedding more airflow around the sides of the car, rather than sending most of it just over the top. There are shapes and grille considerations for not stacking up high pressure heated air under the hood and in the wheel wells, and blending it more smoothly into the slipstream around the car, to both reduce drag, and improve cooling airflow through the radiators and brakes.

35 years is a long time for automotive development, the effects are not as visually outstanding as going from outboard fenders to internal fender designs and fuselage designs like the mid-20th century, like between say 1930 and 1965.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 00:11

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You get the point! Not the hood bulge. The front is very slippery except the bottom and the rear is too slippery. Less drag is not more better. Drag = Downforce.

Not that the Daytona is any slouch. Or anything short of amazing. The hood is OPEN above the headlights. So all that bottled air? High pressure stream under the hood, out the cowl (not the vent.) That ‘lame looking’ spoiler out back also works, if you can get up to the right speed. Plus the big front air dam to prevent intrusion gives it really  good gas mileage.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 00:26

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Three Words...

Computational Fluid Dynamics.

OmerCarrothers333 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 00:33

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I heard stories of a gentleman that raced in amateur classes of SCCA or some shit up and down the California coast in a Fiero that had been tuned to put out the exact factory horsepower and torque specs, at the wheel vs. at the crank. He did alright, never broke down, always finished races, tended to stay mid-pack in a field of 240z’s and Miatas; which at the end of the day, ain’t too bad.

Have fun with the Fiero. Please be a red 2nd gen.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 00:38

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W41 Quad 4 from the Olds Quad 442 Calais, the highest production output form of the 16-valve DOHC Quad-4.

If Fiero had survived, Quad4 and DOHC 3.4L LQ1 60-degree V-6 from the high-output W-bodies (GTP, Z34, etc...) , would have been the ideal engines for Fiero, and with the improved ‘ 88 spec suspension, is what the Fiero deserved.

But that would have badly embarrassed the aging (by the late-80s and early 90s) C4 Corvette, and for barely more than half the price. Chevrolet nipped that in the bud, and Pontiac, and mid-engined enthusiasts lost out.

Oh, but now C8 is going mid-engined... probably for nearly 6-figure price tags, if the price increase rumors are to be believed. Fiero was, as mentioned, much more affordable, and a better performance value.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > OmerCarrothers333 02/25/2019 at 00:40

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Ummmm.....There was only one gen? There were two bodystyles though.

Notchback /base model, 1985 GT, non-GT 6 cylinder, and Formula (1988 only) -

Fastback (GT Only, 1986-88 ) -

InFierority Complex > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 00:41

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He’s got the NA engine I think. Then again that still puts out more HP than the Duke. There’s more mid engines than that on here. Chan - Engines in the Middle pls has his Alfa 4C, Chinny Raccoon has a 3rd gen MR2, and SPAMBot ’s got his 348.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 02/25/2019 at 00:45

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Quad 4 was also high maintenance and trouble-prone. Maybe it would;ve worked in the Fiero, but that ship sailed a while ago, sadly....

But yes, the Fiero was in danger of absolutely cock-blocking the corvette. And with a 200-250hp engine when the corvette struggled to do 300 with 5.7L? ANd you needed the ZR-1 to do 350-400? Yeah, it would’ve been a tough sell.

Forrest > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 02:40

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I prefer the fastback. Somehow it looks 10 years newer.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > ranwhenparked 02/25/2019 at 03:14

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0.28 in the 90s? Edmund Rump ler says “meh”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumpler_Tropfenwagen

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Forrest 02/25/2019 at 03:22

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Agreed that it looks 10 years newer, but it added almost 300lbs to the car so I’ll take the not chback...and I actually put my money into that as I just bought a notchback.

Michael > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 09:02

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Thanks! Looks like a few emulators out there. I swear I think I had it on 5.25" floppy

OmerCarrothers333 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 02/25/2019 at 09:32

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Shows what I know, I thought there were two generations.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Michael 02/25/2019 at 10:47

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Looking into it, there are a few versions. That screenshot was from an MS-DOS port but I remember the old floppy version too. I think it came out in the early 80s, originally.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > OmerCarrothers333 02/25/2019 at 10:50

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Yeah that fastback looks like a proper evolution of the idea. It honestly does look like a car of the 90s. I’d even argue it inspired a body style that Ferrari and Toyota copied for their 90s cars. I can’t find many other cars that launched in 86 that looked like it at all.

Forrest > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 03/01/2019 at 01:30

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Pontiac: the official car of hundreds of pounds of body cladding 

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Forrest 03/01/2019 at 01:33

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300 lbs of plastic....WHO WORE IT BETTER?!?!?!